between 1 and 2 am PDT Thursday, 11 October 2001
on the EFnet #Mensa channel

<Teratogen> I would never go to a gym
<PeterPan_> Teratogen: lol
<Teratogen> you can get warts
<Teratogen> =/
<glorie> ah, sharing the pathogens, yet
<mrKitty> glorie, have you ever been in a serious, long-distance relationship while goign through Uni? i am with a 17 yo girl, incredibly advanced and wonderful, about to enter oxford or yale. i am told within 6 months of girls going to ivy league schools they become lesbians or sluts, by a very well educated man i respect. could you please provide any insight on this? i adore her and thus am of course vulnerable to her.
<glorie> this "very well educated man you respect" is a creep
<glorie> I was told, by a drug retarded idiot, that all the women at berkeley were dykes
<glorie> the same view, different vocabulary
<PeterPan_> Teratogen: so u also missing out the strange feeling of sitting in a finnish sauna with gorgerous women and not feeling the slightest sexual excitment. in europe we use to be naked in saunas, btw ;)
<mrKitty> well i'm very afraid of this.
<mrKitty> anything to allay my fear is most appreciated
<glorie> mrKitty, I recommend you not worry about it
<glorie> and view your friend/hero's opinions with more skepticism
<Teratogen> mrKitty, dump the bitch
<Teratogen> short and sweet
<glorie> and don't listen to Teratogen :)
<PeterPan_> lol
*** Teratogen was kicked by glorie (consider yourself dumped, bitch)
*** Teratogen (~dipthing@adialup228.phnx.uswest.net) has joined #mensa
<PeterPan_> yeah, don't listen to Teratogen ;)))
<Teratogen> ouch!
<PeterPan_> ahhh
<Teratogen> @%!~
<glorie> you earned it.
<mrKitty> glorie, that's why i come here. i know i can always find lucid insight with you
<PeterPan_> re Teratogen ;))
<PeterPan_> Teratogen: so ur at least missing the sauna
<glorie> have we encountered one another before this, mrKitty?
<glorie> I don't recognise your hostmask
<mrKitty> yes, not often or many, ... don't remember the nick i had then either
<mrKitty> sorry
<mrKitty> glorie, which are a couple-few things which would make a girl in a serious and long-distance relationship cheat, and a few things which wouldn't? 
<PeterPan_> mrKitty: just use ur brain. nobody could MAKE u gay/lesbian
<mrKitty> (a girl attending Uni. she likes to party, but just to have fun. she's not a slut or anything. actually a virgin wanting me to be her first but i want us to wait)
<glorie> mrKitty, she is 17.  you don't own her.  she doesn't own you.
<mrKitty> i know that.
<mrKitty> if she finds a guy who makes her happier, i am ok with her being with him. i just want to 1. be the best to her i can be. and 2. not be cheated on
<mrKitty> that's it.
<glorie> I think you should add 3. you don't want her to be drugged and raped
<PeterPan_> mrKitty: most men complaining about lesbian women r often those who have "bad luck" with women
<mrKitty> glorie, yes,.. actually that was a fear i had but didn't want to talk about.
<glorie> I think your best bet, quite honestly, is to pray for her safety and happiness
<PeterPan_> mrKitty: of course they have all to be slutty lesbians, to put them down
<glorie> God's much better at this sort of thing than nervous, anxious people are
<mrKitty> so which kinds of things would make a girl in that position cheat on a guy? and which would make her not cheat on him? generally
<mrKitty> yes
<mrKitty> you're right
<mrKitty> but i also want to do my part
<mrKitty> whatever i can
<glorie> I wonder why you put it in those terms
<mrKitty> [02:45] <Teratogen> dump the bitch <- i love her and my love is rare.
<Teratogen> oh dear
<mrKitty> ok well, which things would compel a girl to cheat
<mrKitty> and compel a girl not to
<mrKitty> is that better? (sorry)
<glorie> I'm in love, too, but when I consider the possibility that he would have someone else I don't think of it in terms of him cheating on me
<glorie> but as an outcome that would make me unhappy, for my own reasons, not something that he'd be taking from me
* Teratogen is in love too =~)
<PeterPan_> glorie: hm, realy ?
<PeterPan_> glorie: only rational or even emotionaly ?
<glorie> I'm in love with him, I'm not married to him
<glorie> and I don't have sex with him
<glorie> I have no actual claim, in my eyes, his, or God's
<mrKitty> glorie, well you're a female. can you give me a few pointers which will go far to make her not *want* another/to cheat?
<Teratogen> glorie, sounds like you don't have any fun at all, girl
<Teratogen> =)
<PeterPan_> Teratogen: ur evil ;)
<mrKitty> my point is...
<mrKitty> what are some things girls in that kind of situation complain about their remote boyfriends
<mrKitty> so i can be sure to not make those mistakes
<PeterPan_> glorie: no jealousy ?
<Teratogen> o/~ today the world was just an address
<Teratogen> a place for me to live in
<Teratogen> no better than "alright"
<Teratogen> but here, you are
<Teratogen> and what was just a world, is a star
<Teratogen> tonight! o/~
<glorie> I don't know, mrKitty, I don't hang out with women much, and when I do they're not people who complain about remote boyfriends
<PeterPan_> glorie: so if u had a realtionship u would still think that way ?
*mrKitty* do you think girls in ivy league schools cheat often?
<glorie> someone tell mrKitty that glorie doesn't like it when men /msg her
*mrKitty* forget it, i'm sorry to bother you
*mrKitty* i'm just afraid.
<glorie> ok :)
*mrKitty* ciao.
<PeterPan_> hm
<glorie> PeterPan_, my standards are so high as to be invisible to most people
<glorie> I don't know how to talk about it
<PeterPan_> glorie: standards for a relationship ?
<glorie> when I feel jealousy, I'm feeling something I need to work on that is my problem, because anyone I care about is going to care about other people, too,  and have other people in their life who care about them
<glorie> feeling jealous because of what they might give or share with another is not the right kind of jealousy, I don't think
<glorie> if we have a relationship, it can only be on terms that we adore one another exclusively
<glorie> I'm not compromising on that, I'd rather be alone than in anything lukewarm and halfhearted, or involving deception
<glorie> jealousy.  hmmmm.
<Teratogen> my advice to mrKitty is to start drinking.
<Teratogen> heavily.
<glorie> I believe what the marriage rites in the book of common prayer say about a relationship worth having :)
<glorie> I've had the other kind, learned what I needed to learn, and don't care to learn the same shit over again
<glorie> Teratogen, it must be really hard work to be as stupid as you are
<glorie> I commend you on your great efforts in that regard
<Teratogen> please, please
<Teratogen> no applause
<Teratogen> =)
<glorie> upcoming award ceremonies soon, count on it
<Teratogen> so has the Towelban made any announcements today?
<glorie> I don't know, it's early yet
<Sir_Vive> 'we still dont like you'
<glorie> wouldn't it be lovely if this allied effort against terrorism could actually apprehend all the individuals powering it, sieze their assets, freeze their acccounts, render them powerless
<Teratogen> it would be loverly
* glorie waits to see who'sleft
* glorie decides to see if she can find Elizabeth Barrett Browning's Aurora Leigh online
<glorie> I ran across some great lines from it but I don't know the overall context
<PeterPan_> re glorie
<PeterPan_> glorie: I know a few ppl that share ur point of view, but still feel extremly jealousy if they r in love with somebody
<glorie> "God answers sharp and sudden on some prayers, / And thrusts the thing we have prayed for in our face, / A gauntlet with a gift in it."
<PeterPan_> hm
<glorie> PeterPan_: I've been working on this longer than you have, that's all
<glorie> I'm not 20 any more, I'm 55
<PeterPan_> glorie: maybe, all I'm saying that the heart often dosen't listen to what the brain is telling it
* Sir_Vive decides perhaps its sleepy time
<yaoi> like when I was depressed in 1992, and prayed for death as an escape. and then got HIV sometime later.
<yaoi> gauntlet
<yaoi> night S_V
<glorie> PeterPan_: that's true, but it can learn, and the brain can learn from the heart also
<yaoi> tuna samiches are tasty
<yaoi> glorie, I want to send you a file, but I haven't scanned it for viruses, ok?
<yaoi> :>
<yaoi> uhoh
<glorie> no :)
<yaoi> I need to set up a website that is just a repository for sharing files w/ppl too cautious to receive files.
<yaoi> welp back to wyrk
<glorie> good idea
<glorie> what is a "discalced carmelite" ?
* glorie looks up 'discalced'
<glorie> interesting.  "without covering for the feet; barefoot"
<mrKitty-> what is the word which means a learned man, a scholar ?
<mrKitty-> begins with an a i believe. perhaps an e
* glorie thinks
<mrKitty-> it's 5-7 letters too
<PeterPan_> hm
<PeterPan_> crosswords ?
<mrKitty-> no
<PeterPan_> eremit ?
<mrKitty-> i absolutely cannot think of this word
<mrKitty-> no
<PeterPan_> elder ?
<glorie> you could input 'scholar' in an online thesaurus
<mrKitty-> yes, did so.
<PeterPan_> glorie: btw, I do think that sexual truth is a relique form the 19th century where u had no real prevention
<gnurgle> "expert" ?
<mrKitty-> no
<mrKitty-> thanks for trying though
* glorie doesn't understand the phrase "sexual truth is a relique"
<glorie> or do you mean sexual fidelity?
<PeterPan_> glorie: hm, maybe ;)
<glorie> ah, that would be a translation problem, you mean fidelity, faithfulness
<PeterPan_> glorie: something from the 19th century
<glorie> sexual exclusivity with one partner
<glorie> PeterPan_: I disagree.
<PeterPan_> glorie: exactly
<PeterPan_> glorie: why ?
<glorie> PeterPan_: one of the attractions of infidelity, for many people, is variety
<glorie> there's more to good sex than variety
<mrKitty-> well and also, you can provide variety yourself
<gnurgle> There's an added excitement in the "new", and "forbidden fruit".
<glorie> I'm not good at talking about this, because in my experience the people who agree with me learned it the hard way, as I did
<glorie> the excitement of the forbidden is deceitful
<mrKitty-> new is a result of variety i think
<mrKitty-> what is your position glorie?
<PeterPan_> glorie: how is it then, that on one hand love is said to be more than just sex but on the other hand for women sexual fidelity is that important ?
<glorie> PeterPan_, sexual fidelity is important to many men, too
<PeterPan_> glorie: why ?
<mrKitty-> like me
<gnurgle> Sexual fidelity is bloody important for me too. :p
<glorie> PeterPan_, it's about relationship
<mrKitty-> i fear being cheated on more than death.
<mrKitty-> far more.
<glorie> there is something precious about exclusivity
<mrKitty-> agreed
<gnurgle> mrKitty-: You don't have to live with death? ;)
<mrKitty-> very much agreed
<PeterPan_> glorie: I often just found it to be a 'value' just found to be important cause evwerybody doese
<glorie> maybe part of the problem is when people expect more of sex itself than it can provide
<mrKitty-> peterpan, no, it's very much based in logic. exclusivity affords greater 'connection' between people imo
<PeterPan_> glorie: u said that u don't own ur loved one. so why couldn't he/she have a diffrent sexual partner as well ?
<glorie> I agree, mrKitty-
<glorie> exclusivity affords greater, deeper connection
<gnurgle> Exclusivity means safer sex. :)
<mrKitty-> peterpan, you don't have the right to controlt he person is what she meant i think
<glorie> I don't know whether he does or not, PeterPan_, my love for him isn't based on that
<mrKitty-> not that it isn't wrong
<PeterPan_> glorie: isn't it more important to have exclusitivity in the exchange of certain feelings, thoughts ?
<glorie> that's true too, gnurgle, when both partners are healthy
<mrKitty-> peterpan, but that's just it...
<glorie> PeterPan_, in the deepest relationship between two people, all those things go together
<mrKitty-> sex is an exchange of feelings
<mrKitty-> mostly for women
<mrKitty-> exactly
<mrKitty-> !
<mrKitty-> for men, it's mechanical
<gnurgle> Except toilet visits.
<glorie> mechanical?
<mrKitty-> it's copulation
<PeterPan_> hm
<mrKitty-> for women it's a lot more
<mrKitty-> same with me
<mrKitty-> that's why i can keep an erection so long during and after climax
<PeterPan_> glorie: sex is just sex.
<mrKitty-> after the physical build up is gone, i still have the love
<mrKitty-> and thus the desire
<PeterPan_> glorie: and men could have sex with ppl they don't love which wouldn't take anything from the women they love
<gnurgle> I think you should separate sex and making love.
<mrKitty-> sex is just sex for many men and people
<glorie> well, it isn't, for me.  I went through a phase in the 70s when I tried that belief on for size and it didn't prove true.  My memories of that time are unwelcome to me, they are unpleasant, I wish I didn't have them.
<glorie> and the only reason I have them is that I ignored the cautions that the idea "sex is just sex" might be false
<mrKitty-> peterpan, i believe it would
<mrKitty-> if a man only made love with 1 woman in his life, i twould mean a lot more than it does for the man bein with 100 women
<mrKitty-> atleast imo
<mrKitty-> but i'm old fashioned
<mrKitty-> it's kind of like 'my gosh, this person made me feel this incredible -- a way noone else has before.' it builds a strong connection
<glorie> yeah, and the quality of the sex with a person who knows s/he will have someone else next week and had someone else last week is much shabbier
<PeterPan_> I think it is the idealistic love ideal of the 19th century
<glorie> it lacks focus on the individual with whom one is actually being intimate
<mrKitty-> glorie, to people who say 'sex is just sex' and 'life is short, enjoy it' etc. what can i say to make them see casual sex is bad?
<gnurgle> mrKitty-: "I hope your penis gets stuck in her teeth!"
<glorie> mrKitty-, I don't know what you can say to them.  they may just have to find out the hard way
<mrKitty-> peterpan, quixotic or not, it's the right thing.
<mrKitty-> glorie, no pun intended i hope?
<glorie> nope, mrKitty-
<PeterPan_> and this ideal is from a time where women couldn't decide when to become pregnant and were economicly dependend to their hubbies
<glorie> we remember best what we learn from painful mistakes.
<glorie> but some people have better minds and stronger characters, and assess that before taking those risks themselves
<glorie> and are realistic enough to judge, by the results in other people, what the real consequences can be
<mrKitty-> peterpan, it's a simple issue of desensitization
<mrKitty-> smart men learn from their mistakes, wise mean learn from the mistakes of others. :-P
<PeterPan_> hehe
<glorie> yeah, desensitization is death to a good sex life
<glorie> that's a big reason why so many use drugs and booze to go with it
<glorie> they want to go through the motions but they don't want the actual intimacy
<mrKitty-> glorie, that's why it's good that i do a lot, both of us do. not just sexually, but in our lives. it keeps things always mixed up, new, fresh. nothing gets mundane or tedious.
<glorie> the intimacy is the scary part, because people ARE scary
<glorie> human beings are predators, after all, and meat eaters, we're scary :)
<mrKitty-> we poop too.
<mrKitty-> that's scary
<PeterPan_> glorie: especialy like the ones in ur gym
<glorie> I actually find vegetarians scarier because they're pretending they're not predators :P
<glorie> a dishonest predator is an unwelcome companion, to me
<PeterPan_> glorie: not realy
<mrKitty-> the only meat i like to eat is surrounding the bartholin glands :-)
<PeterPan_> glorie: this is just ur way to justify ur need for meat ;)
<glorie> people who just want to get laid, and will just want to get laid again, and don't really care which of several dozen people who attract them it might be
<glorie> that lack of selectivity and lack of deep comprehension of what's actually going on in sexual intimacy is a big turnoff to me
<PeterPan_> glorie: but do u also keep in mind that some ppl just feel differently ??
<mrKitty-> i think our position is a fundamental thing to humans
<mrKitty-> i think, baring any mental abnormalities, that it's this way for all
<mrKitty-> they just choose to not recognize it
<PeterPan_> mrKitty-: I disagree
<mrKitty-> its' easier to not allow yourself to be vulnerable to another person
<mrKitty-> it's easier to not invest effort in restraint
<mrKitty-> in a deep relationship
<mrKitty-> etc
<PeterPan_> to say it harsh
<glorie> different people are going to have different standards, take different risks, make different mistakes
<mrKitty-> people are lazy and weak.
<glorie> I'm not much interested in trying to change other people
<mrKitty-> me either...
<mrKitty-> but i just want honesty
<mrKitty-> if you're a slut, say so
<glorie> the internal momentum already in them is much stronger than any external force I could apply
<PeterPan_> well
<mrKitty-> i shan't judge, but don't try to deceive me
<PeterPan_> well
<mrKitty-> glorie, well said
<glorie> thanks
<PeterPan_> but u judge ppl from that point of view
<PeterPan_> without understanding their feelings maybe
<glorie> PeterPan_, the internal momentum already in me is also much stronger than any external force they could apply
<glorie> I'm not, in that sense, judging them as different from me
<PeterPan_> glorie: I don't know what u mean with this aspect
<glorie> well, you know enough physics to understand momentum and force, right?
<PeterPan_> momentum ?
<PeterPan_> sure
<PeterPan_> but that's physics
<mrKitty-> sleep time, ciao.
<glorie> I'm using these physical terms in an analogical, metaphorical sense in applying them to the development of human character
<PeterPan_> hm
<glorie> if someone else is already on a path that's guiding them to promiscuity, nothing I can say will deter them
<PeterPan_> ok
<glorie> and if I'm on a path that's guiding me to fidelity, faithfulness, nothing they can say will deter me
<glorie> we're just on different trajectories
<PeterPan_> that sounds pretty much like having no own will
* glorie shrugs
<glorie> I'm sure we're both doing our best to communicate what we think as clearly as possible
<PeterPan_> so ?
<glorie> no, my will was involved every step of the way, one way or another
<glorie> it's been going through growth and training, learning, all along
<glorie> human will isn't a static unchanging thing, I don't think
<PeterPan_> hmmm
<PeterPan_> momentum still has an element of force from outised
<PeterPan_> outside
<PeterPan_> at least to me
<PeterPan_> not controlled by ur will
<glorie> well, I didn't enter this discussion with the idea in mind that I'd change someone else's mind
<PeterPan_> yes
<PeterPan_> but
<glorie> I enjoy discussions because I get two things out of it:  I get to practice expressing what my views are and I get to hear other people's views
<glorie> both those things contribute to my understanding
<glorie> and over time, my views do change
<glorie> as I continue to learn
<PeterPan_> ur analogy sounds to me like, that if ur on ur way there is nothing that could change u till a certain point
<glorie> my views now are, as I said before, partly the result of having had different views earlier in life
<PeterPan_> glorie: ok, I agree with that
* glorie decides this is a good time to go to sleep