[godlog1] Tuesday 14 November 2000 11:00 a.m its a highway to whiny selfcenteredness that was an accurate description of what you just did lele, you want an easy answer, or more likely pity. ok i just want no more "unfounded criticism" you're so beleagured so plagued with questions. i'm home schooled awesome and we're supposed to feel sorry for you and console you. what are you studying this semester? parents allow unlimited time on the net to take you under our wings and comfort you. you really need to get real. no i am not looking for your pity I remember being 14. Most adults despised me then. It is now 40 years later and while more people than ever despise me, my world isn't as small as it was then so it's not as devastating i was looking for an answer sure you are theres no other reason to throw a tantrum you threw the goddamn tantrum i didnt say anything offensive to you. you want to have a hissyfit because you dont like my attitude im trying to show her, glo/ ok that's just hypocritical. getting bent out of shape every time lele runs into a jerk, she'll never stand upright lele, starting arguments with people is not the way to inner peace. true People who love argument do have a lot of fun with it, though, and sometimes the exhaustion after a good argument seems a reasonable substitute for inner peace. but i do not know how to handle them in a peaceful manner ah. Richard Alpert (Baba Ram Dass) found another sort of inner peace when he had a stroke. The real thing is worth knowing and maintaining on a daily basis. is that what she's after. why does everyone think i'm a she!! this is upsetting i heard an army chick say a fistfight is the next best thing to sex, similar corollary, glo * HemAtWerk foregoes an ejaculatory response haha, hem oh yeah? how did he describe it? or did it cost his life No, he's still living, in a wheelchair, with considerable difficulty speaking compared to before the stroke and much of what he says is even more spaced out than before, but that's what people come to him to hear so that's not a huge loss interesting. has anyone ever experienced a moment of pure inexplicable joy? Yes, I've experienced many of them, and look forward to many morel. i had three weeks of it. what were the circumstances under which you experienced some? I get regular doses of those moments since I started going to church last year at the risk of raising your ire, lele, tales of bliss wont teach you anything. they will kill my time, something that i have lots of the only secret to inner peace is that we choose our challenges and are responsible for them. It's not that they're only available to me there, but that somehow observing the Sabbath in a church very congenial to my spirit supports my willingness to return to joy again and again lele, have you ever read Zen Flesh, Zen Bones ? so being the intellect that you are, instead of putting the religious system under scrutiny, you choose to embrace it? * arryana rolls her eyes I think what arryana just said is a very important component faith and intelligence are not at odds I am not only my intellect and yes, faith and intellect need not be at odds any more than the brain can function without the heart ok you sound like someone with experience so instead of questioning religion it's better to just embrace one? jesus. well i could believe that we possessed spirits were we not animals and nothing more *** gl0riosky changes topic to ' Inner peace comes from choosing our challenges and being responsible for them.' embracing religion without faith will teach you nothing but hypocrisy but we are animals. thats all we are. regardless of how church or lighting candles makes you feel inside it could never make me feel the way it makes you feel because i always keep in mind how closely we resemble animals if that's what we choose, hem what is faith though. i believe in a god, or greater force that governs the workings of every physic, but is this the faith? No, we are more than animals, though many appear uninterested in being more than that. hem, joy strikes a different chord in all of us. i disagree for you it might be a guitar lick. i guess we disagree in this most of all glory http://www.gracecathedral.org/ i think you're denying your own moments of trancendence, hem i cannot find in my experiences anything that puts me above other animals what above? above is irrelevant, at best delusional, at worst above as in proving to me that i possess something that other animals do not we all possess something someone else does not. something that seperates me from them hell, we possess speech you posess opposable thumbs they too speak some all animals are different but the same they can whip the shit out of us at a test of the nose they think in group mentality, we do not. opposable thumbs damnit. they are different from us no doubt. but they are also the same as us we are like them! sure, as we're like everything else. we're also different. i dont get the problem we are different yes. animal diversity. the diversity of life it makes us different so? a human is different from an ant and a dolphin is different from a beetle and a fish is different from a giraffe diversity and where does the issue rub? but we are all similar in many ways. ways that are so similar that i cannot imagine humans being drastically different from other animals as to put humans in a class by themselves humans as bearers of something that other animals dont possess. something like a spirit * arryana shrugs well we are in a human class what does it matter what we call ourselves? what we are is explorers. as a species. why don't they legalize murder? animals do it why can't we if some of us explore the intangible, what of it? HemAtWerk: So, you can prove the hypothesis that animals do not have spirits? i cant go into a church and feel that i am experiencing somethign spiritual when i do not believe in it i am just an animal * arryana puts lele back in the playpen until he can be pertinent i eat through one end and poop out the other oh, i m biological and nothing moer there you go between my legs are genitals thats your choice, hem the placement of these genitals resemble the placement found on many other species they are between my legs, like they are between the legs of my cat but there is something more to it than that, the animals are a part of it too and we mate similarly if i were to choose to mount in such a fashion :) we are animals so? we die as they die and when a cat dies it leaves behind its skeleton when i die i leave behind my skeleton ah. we are the same, my cat and i you dont know that. true enough but it is at the foundation of how i feel its as likely you're both recycled. it is what makes sense to me based on what i have observed of our reality hem. I think it would be pretty pretentious to believe that my life was much different than that of a cat. this is a LOT of work to convince yourself. why does it matter what anyone believes of us? hem, there is more to life than what we people can pick up with our compromised senses and it is because of this that i cannot be moved by some concept of spirituality because i dont believe we are in possession of it so you havent found conviction that doesnt negate it in everyone else and some of this unseen can affect the lifestyle * HemAtWerk nods i agree a simpler example would be gamma rays. you can't see them you have a problem with pretention, it seems but they affect your lifestyle but faith isnt always pretention. somehow i always see it as pretention very good there ya go that is how i always view faith. i view it in that light faith is usually terrifying. i see it as absurdly pretentious sometimes, hem, we ARE part of a bigger story that some of us enjoy our key roles more than the key mule.... * arryana shrugs its the bent of our nature. dogs bark part of the bigger story? what do you mean? if you believe in faith, hem, you believe that the human spirit can be called. as such. I am satisfied with people being satisfied with what they believe in. who's doing the calling? i despise religion for many reasons but one main reason is because one's religion is so dependant upon the environment in which one was raised hem. i dont' undersatnd how a person can not see religion in the way i see it you're speaking in generalities to force a point to be true I dislike religion for leading their followers into ignorance. most people of faith question it constantly. when a person is exposed to the fact that there are so many other religions in the world that have parallel themes. to me that should be enough to destroy anyone's belief and to see it as bunk come on, hem. But if it makes them happy, sure, just imagine what the world would be like if all of us were "free" thinkers. if i wasn't raised as a hindu i wouldn't be believing in hindu! do you choose with whom you fall in love? experience is the only teacher. a good religion would teach its supplicants to think for themselves and build a solid set of ideals i dont know about that array anna you're being a lot more closedminded and arrogant than you think, hem] It never occured to you Hem, that all the various religions could be expressions of the same thing? no i dont think i am array youre assuming that the rest of humanity never stops to consider what they believe or why i understand how my view parallels the view of believers they're just choosing differently than you. who are so convinced in their truth as i am convinced in mine ok so we are animals. respect other animals. but why not believe in a god? do you lack evidence? and they seek to beat people to death with their conception of truth giving no leway to others as i sometimes do with my truth so do you. so i am aware of my closemindedness in this regard and thus i am more openminded than i am coming across lele: In my opinion, if believing in a god will give you inner peace, then you should. you think they dont know? to be aware of one's closemindedness is important * arryana shakes her head in my opinion it makes a person less closeminded and one can avoid falling into the same traps as the people one is accusing or something im aware i feel thats a convenient solution to make your position unassailable in your mind hem so you use your belief that all animals are equal as proof that a greater force does not exist, simply because we do not *deserve* it? how are we to know that the animals are not experiencing it either? i am just stating that i am aware of what i am saying i dont seek to make my standpoint impenetrable through this the truth is, it doesnt make you the slightest nevermind what other people believe this war is all about you. you said i'm being more close minded than i realize and im just trying to show you that i am not odds are the animal is experiencing this force by the second i am about as closeminded as i realize lol that sounded childish i really do hope you are right that most ppl question their faith constantly because they really should you should ask yourself why you care. it seems to me though that most ppl do not hem sorry if this sounds somewhat harsh but you do sound a bit narrow in your statements still doesnt matter i dont know why i care since i have no concern for the future of mankind but its an issue i have opinions about you care because you need to believe you're right. you might wanna ask yourself why. i don't know if its that really... cause even if you're right, it doesnt matter * HemAtWerk nods agreed the rest of the human race will continue as theyve started even if i am right it doesn't matter so why the war? hem, sure that part about being equals with the other animals sounds agreeable, but how does that deny you the ability to experience god? it doesn't matter that people are out their wasting their times praying to something that doesn't exist or pleasure why should it? because its doing something for their mental well being and thus cant be a waste of time while reflecting on god and it is also my belief that there is nothing to really do on this earth other than kill time till yer dead just find ways to pass the time even if it is a waste of time, jesus people get drunk, dont they? how productive is THAT? they kill all sorts of innocent people that way why not THAT cause, hem ? um well i would certainly not campaign for more productivity you get the point. of course what good does it do you to run around ripping up the religious security blankets people hold? i cannot tell you why i care. i do not know. well i dont if that is what they are sure it is i dont go around ripping religion to shreds anymore that is something i did years ago i said security blankets. i understand i know. ok hem, you honestly do not believe in god? ok, using a simple dog / human archetype i explain this relatively simple phenomenon. a dog is trained to respond to a high pitched sound that only it can hear, and the human recognises the sound through the dog. but without the dog, does the sound still exist? i don't know why i hate to see people cling to those blankets yeesh, lele, shut up. this is an interesting conversation. i don't know why i feel compelled to show them how silly I feel their view is sorry slow typer. but i feel it strongly and i cannot stand to witness it and thus none of my friends are believers i simply could not have one as a friend not while you're looking theyll just hide their hearts. and then where are you? i have a very hard time respecting them but i do manage to do that so? thats your intolerance. it takes an effort but i try to look at other characteristics in them that i can respect often i do but i would never befriend them for all that you think we should op the ones we like the least, you're beating out all the people who arent just like you in your own life. our schemas are too different bah well no i am not that intolerant after all we're all different. for i am surrounded by people that are different from me but not in the way we are talking about In a zen garden you cannot see all of it from one viewpoint hem, we're all alone in the end. the thing we are discussing makes people DRASTICALLY differnent from me whats it matter to you what we hold? and its very true that i do not want to surround myself or be in the company of people drastically different from me what other people are is no reflection on you. why so threatened by that? ? i wouldn't feel shame hanging around them its clearly fear. i just couldn't stand being around them! but why? look at the dam zen quote? you can never fully understand the world from one perspective. because we can not relate why not? our schemas are too different so? our personal realities are too different bull when we look at the world we see two different things and thus we could not relate there's always something hiding behind that tree we do not share the same reality sure you do just different aspects of it so why react as if its threatening, its a fascination. what do you have to lose? i am in your head lele about your question earlier reality is in the eye of the beholder i really really dont feel that i find it threatening array anna then why cant you relate? dig deep enough into the psyche and it might all boil down to fear? i don't know, but i dont feel that that is the case is all hatred rooted in fear? maybe i simply do not know lele is in your head that certainly seems to be the popular opinion i feel hatred towards these people as well. no doubt its not a strong hatred though. it was stronger in the past lele plants the seed of doubt! like i said i can respect them now lele there is undoubtedly LOTS that flies by us that we do not observe we do not have the organs to pick up gamma rays but they do affect our being organs that would feed our brain information based on the amount of gamma radiation in the area in one way or another there is certainly a lot that goes by us every second that we can not observe we do not sense all of what is happening so this may be speculation, but perhaps there is a greater force from which it all originates there might very well be and it would not be wrong to assume that we are all part of it but the Unknown and religion seem disconnected to me and perhaps reflecting on this greater force can extol some form of pleasure religion converts the unknown, the unseen, into something our senses can pick up and understand nothing to lose by trying but it sure as hell doesn't do a good job at converting in my opinion religions don't know jack about the unknown if you're against the stereotyped concept of god being some white beardy man up on a cloud, it is still as unknown as ever have you tried all religions? that can reach otu and shake your hand i am definitely against that stereotype but i would hope that people don't actually believe in that the christians themselves can't possibly believe in the bearded man can they? you have heard of the grand unified theory of everything? apparently this is a means of mathematically proving the existance of god if it is every finished ever its not the streotype but any attempt to come to terms with the mysteries that involves getting a lot of ppl to agree on the same thing any mysteries in particular? * HemAtWerk shrugs um... dude one mystery in particular Man's place in the universe it sounds like you just want to kick down other people's sandcastles our place is on earth somewhere along the left arm of the milky way galaxy is this the mystery that you hold against religion? why can't you recognize religion for what it is, a collection of good teachings and ideals that can be used to make your life better i see it as EXACTLY that it would please me if believers saw it as that as well and only that that is exactly what religion is after all but religious people do not see it as such they see it as that AND more it offends you when people feel special? yes that is the pretention in religion instead of using this as the basis of your disbelief of god, why not just believe in him and poke around in some religions whats it to you? bhuddism's pretty interesting because either way you have no evidence well you see i never said i disbelieve the existence of god you some how extrapolated that from this conversation but i never did say that you just dont want anyone happy using a system that doesnt work for you? it is an unknown and i do not feel a strong conviction one way or the other on this particular mystery an eastern "religion" that isn't really religion at all is in fact more appealing to me lele so you're saying that god may exist, but won't affect your life in any real way? they are all religions something like buddism which is light on the theology and heavy on life lessons or whatever you call them i agree with zen's teachings array anna: i m not as close minded as that 1 system cant work for everyone in fact my way of life seems most unsuitable to most people yet you deride them for their choices http://www.rider.edu/users/suler/zenstory/zenstory.html some good readings i used to deride them there is no oen true religion but in a way, they are all true now i just dont have anything to do with them i see it as mythology and i cant imagine a person not seeing mythology for mythology if that were true, we wouldnt be having this conversation i have a very difficult time respecting a person's intelligence when they choose one mythos over another it truly is better not to choose at all to you because all your choises are weak candidates yes to me in your opinion but we arent you you use the generalizing phrase of "mythology" to justify your decision? Truly mythology may have had somewhat disrespectful roots but there is a degree of truth to it, as with all readings