Jonesey, it is my opinion the US black community has chosen to isloate themselves eve more from the rest of US society. seanchai: Heh, arry was givin her the business Sky: Actually it's the other way around. Jonesey both had opinions. I didn't see it gettin nasty. do you really think so? Sky: Read much US history? Skyman I think Jonesey has a point. not recent history. Well, you're 56. Then you believe they have been involuntarily isolated, forced to form a new culture. You've seen a lot Sky: I believe? Indeed I have. When a group feels threatened, it retreats. seanchai: Feels? In like 20 years or so, Calif will be 51% Latino. and my evaluation is that race relations are worse now than they were 50 years ago. Think how THAT will change the voter demographics :) but will 51% of the VOTERS be Latino? Jonesey I haven't been there. I have to call it as I observe it. Well, I haven't been there either. Skyman Watch for the changes :) As a youngster, I had black playmates and thought nothing of it. the black school was the best and newest in the county. skyman: You didn't notice that they had sharply curtailed human rights? Not as a child I did not. * seanchai sees the Canadian French speaking citizens retreat into their culture and language. All that does is make them immobile targets for the rest of the country. sky: That's interesting, would be the only time I've ever heard of that. we had black neighbors with nice houses. Perhaps my area was unususal sky: What do you think the relative wealth of blacks and whites was on average? Sky: Perhaps? :) in my part of town they were on par with the whites. in fact there was one well to do black family that I recall. Skyman What was the racial mix in your area of town? sky: That's spectacular...in most of the country the wealth(net worth) ratio was something like 20 to 1 in favour of whites. all this was 48-50 years ago. low, seanchai. There were not many black families. ok As I said, perhaps my community was unusual. It improved massively, to the point where in the late 80s it was only 10 to 1 nationally. Not sure where it is now. After the integration rulling, things got worse. sky: But surely you have access to the same stats I do? * seanchai didn't grow up with a bias towards orientals or blacks. There weren't any to speak of. How can I, so much younger than you and from another country, be so much better informed about your nation than you? We all hated Canadian Indians, and we were TAUGHT by our parents to do so. I am speaking only of what I observed as a young man. sky: Oh, me too. greetings Mark It's horrifying to think of, now. seahchai: Scary Jonesey no kidding. Hi Skyman sky: Methinks you have some severe selective vision, my friend. Maybe it's the glasses? As soon as you heard, "them" you knew you were better n they were :( My family was friends wtih a black family, we socialized. <^Boston^> hallo So sky, after the "integration ruling", you stopped socializing? we had great respect for the Nichols family. hey boston, how's it going? no, not at all. In Vancouver, BC now, there's an influx of orientals. And I hear my white friends talk about "them" as a group, and in disparaging terms. It's scary. How did things get worse, sky? it was a gradual thing. seanchai: Sounds ominous <^Boston^> cold. I'm moving to Hawaii... Boston: wait for me it took ten years. Kaixo hiya Ros :) and it was the young people who were most affected. Sky: In what way? increasing hostility, isolation, rejection. perhaps I had just not recognized it as a younger man. after all, we had black friends. sky: Perhaps. :) How would the black family have become more threatening? * Rznante sits back to understand the conversation I hold the memory of Dick Nichols in high regard. He was a fine man. It's all perceptions, right? Honeset, hard working, an artesian. I do not maintain that the rest of the country was like this. What about the rest of your county..state? It's pretty horrifying to think that skin colour or religion should set you apart as an elite member of the population :( or not, as the case may be. Today, many blacks are in prison because they are black, not because they are guilty of what they were accused. I'm sure with minimum effort I can dig up some fairly appalling material about your home area, Sky. Skyman ..going through life as a suspect, you mean? perhaps within a few miles of me, Jonesey, but I am not so sure of my home town proper. skyman: Yep, u could well be right Overt and covert racism exists. Just cause it ain't out in the open don't mean it isn't there. very true. Seanchai Very true I for one find dark skinned women attractive. Asians, Blacks... "Tho you're black or brown or yellow, you might still be quite a fellow/ Just so long as you don't want to EAT with us" :( but I seldom see white men dating them. In the cities it's commonplace. Here, anyway. :( Sky: Well, there are stringent cultural prohibitions against it. who are 'them'? Sky: have you read any studies of racial atittudes? no. You have any URLs, Jonesey? I'm interested. welp time to go.... White americans are very uncomfortable with interracial dating involving blacks, from what I've read that is true, Jonesey. but not me. some americans, of the older generations. it isnt as much true of the younger americans I see black men here using white women ... not sure what's behind it all. Jonesey: you read wrong...even the founding fathers had black women as slaves they slept with arryana: But still quite true, though not as strongly. * arryana shrugs sleeping with a black female slave is not dating her. my godkids are black. A black female friend of mine tells me about "gettin back at the spooks" and it's an interesting story. I also married a black girl once...loved her dearly married one? MarkHarte: There's an institute at the University of California that studies this kind of stuff, has been for many yrs. Indeed Well, Jefferson OWNED his slave. Whether he had feelings for her was another thing altogether. what happened to the marriage if I may ask. many were free slaves that stayed on too Im not saying he was right or wrong. At the time, he had ownership. And I understand when they were in paris, she had the opportunity to leave, and didn't. Markharte: So the laws against interracial marriage that prevailed through most of US history are a figment of my imagination, or the cultural inhibitions that created and survived them? Her children wouldn't behave...we had to end it MarkHarte: Jefferson's slaves were freed on his death Mark: Can I have some of what you're having? Jonesey you sure? Oprah said sally H was valued at $50 and went to Jefferson's heirs. Simply because there were laws written by a few at the top doesn't mean that was the attitude of the masses...as is true today. seanchai: Maybe it was just his kids then I think maybe. I was FASCINATED by the show. Stayed at work to watch it. * Skyman surfs on.... Also even if the slaves were 'owned', it doesn't mean they were not 'loved' MarkHarte: So basically there has been tolerance, and these laws were just there on paper? Mark: They were love slaves? MarkHart, contemporary accounts say Jefferson's friends were APPALLED at his long-term relationship with Sally, his sister-in-law. (You know that Jefferson's father in law fathered Sally, eh?) I think that through most of history a fear prevailed that made it uncomfortable to interracially marry actually, jefferson had two daughters who lived and died as slaves. But clearly there have been all types of those...not an unusual case. Mark: A fear of what? And his son by Sally "passed", right arry? * arryana nods Being 1/8th black? What others may think perhaps? have you read "clotel"? Hmm, so there were cultural inhibitions then? I thought you felt there weren't, mark? But as we progress we now see this is not an overwhelming issue in the states is it? MarkHart You are saying it was a social disaster to admit to having any black blood, so to speak. And why was that so "bad"? WHAT?? I never said that Mark: It sure is. % of interracial marriages hereis much lower relative to numbers than in any other Western country that I know of. I think that through most of history a fear prevailed that made it uncomfortable to interracially marry MarkHart You are saying it was a social disaster to admit to having any black blood, so to speak. And why was that so "bad"? That says nothing about an admission Why else would there be fear? sickle cell ? In the minds of people then... it hadn't been isolated yet. They may have feared what other peers may have thought If they had such a relationship * arryana sigh arryana: Older generation eh? this stuff gets more depressing all the time. great. But I never mentioned anything about black blood then just assume the generalities, jonesey. Assume? Where have I assumed anything? there will always be idiots who uphold the narrowmindednesses. im not arguing with you. dont get so defensive. You are. You're accusing me of assuming. dont' get offensive. * arryana sighs And I won't be defensive. okay, im assuming youre assuming or whatever. just forget it. Yep, so cut it out. glad to whatever. <|PythonS|> Jonesey, You preachin to the Deaf. heh same to you arry I guess nobody asked me when they were doing the poll what I though...I think black wone and the black race is great ;-) * seanchai contemplates sendin the kids to their rooms. Of course...you did read something from S CA haha Do it seanchai seanchai the wicked stepmother im too f***ing sick and sad over the whole thing to argue with you, jonesey muhuwahahahaha We are entirely too complacent, seeing racism as "their" problem when we are like 98% responsible. you want to believe that americans are a lot of bigots, you may not be far wrong. I think Jonesey is admirably restrained. its evident that im the idiot for daring to think differently. im not disagreeing, seanchai Racism is on both sides Sean Well, pointing fingers for responsibility is one thing. arryana: I don't know what you mean about wanting to believe anything? Both sides are wallowing in self pity now. arryana: So reporting results of studies is wanting to believe? dont overanalyze the thing. nope believe them A small % of both sides make all the noise arryana: What is overanalyzing? you're labelling simple comments with a pejorative. you're defensive. nope Yes, over- is a pejorative if you want to believe that, thats fine too. I don't want to believe it, you're the one who said I'm overanalyzing. Mark: I think a small % of both sides haven't given up making the noise. Well...I'm bored...later. You're boring too...bi Maybe we need to stand up when we see injustice happening. No, maybe we need to forget the injustice and attack people as overanalyzers. For absolutely no reason. dont goad me, jonesey dont' goad me, arryana. i wasnt, regardless of what you choose to believe. Don't come attacking me out of the blue either. I didn't choose to believe that you said I was overanalyzing. arry and Jonesey are about to fight a duel. What analysis did I do? nope. It's lightsabres at 15 paces! i have no intention of fighting with anyone. What was the overanalysis? i have no interest in arguing any of this. im not attacking you, jonesey Me neither. hang tight kids Thanks arry then why arent you letting it go? gotta go empty the dryer in case of clean socks :) Not attacking you either, just baffled. take your last shots, and get it over with. because you aren't. I'm not taking shots. great. then its over. Good. dinnertime.